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Forum:Breaking up History sections (II)
__NOWYSIWYG__ I think we should consider breaking up history sections (at least for the main characters) into separate pages, like, well, most wikis do. Right now, pages like Aqualad, Nightwing, etc are huge, and actually take a while to save each time, not to mention how it takes forever to scroll down. They're basically endless walls of text. We could write a super abridged recap for each month and provide a link to "Aqualad in July 2010" or the like, which would contain the detailed summaries we can see now. ― Thailog 16:57, July 27, 2012 (UTC) :Even reverting things takes ages. I'm okay with splitting off, but what? Everything in one page, or different pages for different years? And where do we draw the line? --'[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[Message wall:Tupka217|''217]]' 17:12, July 27, 2012 (UTC) ::I'd say one page per "Month Year" (July 2010, August 2010, etc.). ― Thailog 17:16, July 27, 2012 (UTC) :::And what of Early life and 2011-2015? --'[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[Message wall:Tupka217|''217]]' 17:22, July 27, 2012 (UTC) ::::That could stay. Only long walls of text benefit from being separate, IMO. ― Thailog 17:28, July 27, 2012 (UTC) :::::Unless...? --'[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[Message wall:Tupka217|''217]]' 17:32, July 27, 2012 (UTC) ::::::Page like those don't need it. I'm really just referring to the main cast (the Team, mostly). In other words, pages with well expanded by month synopses. ― Thailog 17:36, July 27, 2012 (UTC) :::::::How about adding a default "hide" button to the month/year headings...kind of like the one that is on the character infoboxes. --[[User:thejluninja|'theJLUninja']] 07:43, July 28, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::Think that's a good idea in theory but hide template wouldnt actually help the problem since in source mode there would still just be a massive wall of text, now with extra code... my only sugggestion is keep it as the parent page, similar to how quotes, images and appearances typically work on other wikias.Regulus22 08:17, July 28, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::People don't necessarily have to edit the whole article. They could just click the edit button that is next to every month/year. --[[User:thejluninja|'theJLUninja']] 19:13, July 28, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::That's not the only problem with long articles, or the only argument I raised. Please read the entire discussion carefully. ― Thailog 19:25, July 28, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::I think the "hide" feature and clicking on the section edit link instead of the article edit link generally solves all the problems. --[[User:thejluninja|'theJLUninja']] 19:47, July 28, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::::Neither do. ― Thailog 19:50, July 28, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::::I don't get it. --[[User:thejluninja|'theJLUninja']] ''Talk to me'' 20:42, July 28, 2012 (UTC) "Hiding" the content won't ease the the page's loading time, as the content will still be there, and editing only on individual sections takes away editing flexibility, not to mention that it's impractical. We can't instruct people not to edit the entire page but only on each month section. As I said, neither solve any of the raised problems. ― Thailog 20:57, July 28, 2012 (UTC) :Yeah, the hide function doesn't solve the fact that the page's load time is longer than it should be. The content in the hidden area still has to be loaded. But back to the discussion, I've really been dreading this, because although it's one that was inevitable, it's one which solution I really despise. It's one of the things that I actually hate about the articles on Avatar Wiki, in that the history sections are on separate pages, but I don't think there's any way around it. So I think I'll just have to grin and bear it. Begrudgingly, I'm for it. I like long articles, but articles like the ones at Wookiepeedia are too long. Also, as a side note, I think this could benefit from having a notice at the top of the affected pages temporarily, saying that the history has been split, and then link it to a blog which explains it in more detail. An addition to the infobox with links should be made too. 01:04, July 29, 2012 (UTC) ::That sounds fine by me. I actually split the history sections of the main characters of Scooby-Doo on Scoobypedia, but only because there's 40+ years worth of material to cover. If I may I'd like to suggest using the four seasons again although I'm sure that wouldn't work out. Another suggestion for the main characters is if they get separate history pages then it could be broken up into character arc sub sections below each year. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 02:27, July 29, 2012 (UTC) :::Not sure seasons would work, seeing as the series is set in locations around the world, meaning the seasons differ. 03:34, July 29, 2012 (UTC) ::::When you think about it, it's only six moths a Season. So even disregarding the hemispheric differences, seasons would only split the large amount of text to two extra long pages each season. I'd say months would be best since it's then 1/6th roughly speaking. Regulus22 07:34, July 29, 2012 (UTC) :::::How about moving them to separate pages, and then linking them back to the main article, like a template. -- 08:40, July 29, 2012 (UTC) ::::::But then that only solves the issue of it being hard to edit. The content in the template won't appear by magic, it still has to be loaded. 08:55, July 29, 2012 (UTC) :::::::I don't get what you mean by the "loaded" part. As far as I see it, it just like loading an infobox. It's fast and easy. --[[User:thejluninja|'theJLUninja']] ''Talk to me'' 17:06, July 29, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::I really don't know how else to explain it. Can we move on? ― Thailog 20:31, July 30, 2012 (UTC) Yup. So have we agreed that content will be moved in groups of months? I.e., "History of Robin in September 2010"? 11:02, July 31, 2012 (UTC) :Is there a (preferably easy) way to have the domain as something like Robin/history/September_2010? be easier navigation and pagename wise. Regulus22 11:26, July 31, 2012 (UTC) There doesn't need to be a page on each month for each year, just the on history page. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 02:08, August 1, 2012 (UTC) ::A single history page would still have the same problem in about 2 episodes/issues.content's just too much.Regulus22 02:12, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :::Having a page for each month for each year is too excessive. I don't understand how it would be "just too much"? If there was a policy on how long each episode and comic entry was then there wouldn't be as much of a problem. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 06:18, August 1, 2012 (UTC) ::::That would only delay the problem. Eventually, the content would become huge again, and we'd be back where we are now. 06:39, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :::::I think you're turning this into something bigger than it needs to be... -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 10:42, August 1, 2012 (UTC) ::::::And what is that? ― Thailog 12:01, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :::::::Don't take this the wrong way, but must you be so difficult? I'm sure you could say the same thing, but what I meant was is that we can't have one history page for each team member because that too would get too long, that's what I think is being made into something bigger than it is. If each page is going to get too long then why even separate them in the first place? The powers and abilities section is long, but I don't see anyone asking if that should be separated and the same goes for the relationship sections as there's a Miss Martian and Superboy page, but then they each still have a portion of that on their own page which seems redundant. I think maybe there could be a page on each year, but I suspect that that too would somehow be too long. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 12:32, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :::::::If it was a genuine question then I apologize for any offence you may take, but I thought I was quite clear what I was referring to. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 12:58, August 1, 2012 (UTC) ::The other sections are nowhere near as long as the history section, which is guaranteed to continue to expand as we get more episodes and comics, while the other sections may have some additions, it's not on the same scale. Yes a page of each year for their history would become too long aswell which is why we were all in agreeance that a monthly basis would be manageable. You understand that the problem is that the amount of content on the character pages is the main problem right? by chunking that into smaller pages (months because other options are not feasable) there would be a semi-definitive size of each history section page which would reduce the time it takes to load the character pages and generally make editting them easier. Anyway since the 3 active admins are in agreeance on how to do this, the way i see it the go ahead is pretty much to there for this to happen. So Thailog, any idea as to whether what i suggested with domain going like ...wiki/(Character)/History/Month Year. is possible? Regulus22 13:46, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :Why am I being difficult? I think I explained why these pages are too long, and what issues that entails. You say "Miss Martian and Superboy" is big; well that one is only 9,481 bytes, while "Miss Martian" is 68,243 bytes, (7x more). I'm sure you can see how that's different. "Nightwing" is the biggest as of now, with 88,103 bytes. These pages take longer than normal to load even on the best of browsers (I consider mine good, but it takes far longer than it should), and are too overwhelming for anyone to read it all. I would say that our target reader's attention span should be taken into account. Long pages prompt skimming, thus becoming more susceptible to unnoticed typos and grammar mistakes, all buried in long walls of text and verbose. ― Thailog 13:47, August 1, 2012 (UTC) If we use "History of Robin in September 2010" for example there's going to obviously be some that are going to say that Robin wasn't around in September 2010 because they would for sure just think of the new Robin. Unless you want to just keep in line with how it was back then? My suggestion would be to use "Robin/history in September 2010". I guess aome people would capitalise "History" because it's a title in itself, but I also see it as a conintuation of the article's name. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 14:42, August 1, 2012 (UTC) I didn't mean that the "Miss Martian and Superboy" is too long I just meant that you wnat to make a point of having separate pages for history in months when we've also given separate pages for relationships only to keep a section on both of those pages which then defeats the purpose of having a separate page to begin with. How and where are we going to to direct the reader to these seperate pages? We could keep the History heading and just leave links underneath. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 14:51, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :That's the whole point of this, make the seperate pages to remove of heavily minimise the sections on the character pages to cut down the content and therefore loadtime. though i say that Robin/History/September_2010, would work better navigation-wise then all month pages for character would be within the character's history directory instead of just the character's. (if wiki allows that sortof thing of course)Regulus22 15:02, August 1, 2012 (UTC) ::I think using subpages for content is generally not a good idea. For one, from an encyclopedic point of view, you can't tell if the title is supposed to have a slash (Superman/Batman: Public Enemies) or if it's a subpage. That's why, well, basically no wiki uses this. Also, subpages are also not Google friendly. I think the simplest way is to use either "History of Aqualad in July 2010" or "Aqualad in July 2010". Under each month heading, we'd put a "Main: Link" to its respective page, and below, a succinct recap of what happened in that month. ― Thailog 16:20, August 1, 2012 (UTC) :::Is it possible to make some JavaScript code which would open an in-page window of the desired sub-section? What I'm thinking of is kind of like the preview button for edits. --[[User:thejluninja|'theJLUninja']] ''Talk to me'' 10:28, August 2, 2012 (UTC) ::::No. ― Thailog 10:34, August 2, 2012 (UTC) ::Hmm. Alright that's fair enough, i just figured subpages'd be easier. So how's would something like this be implemented?Regulus22 12:58, August 2, 2012 (UTC) Well I highly doubt a bot could move the content, so it'll all be moved by admins. 22:52, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :Oh yeah, no script can do that. ― Thailog 22:56, August 3, 2012 (UTC) ---- Alright. They still need some tweaks (a main box template on each history page at least), but this is the idea: * Aqualad ** Aqualad in July 2010 ** Aqualad in August 2010 ** Aqualad in September 2010 ** Aqualad in October 2010 ** Aqualad in December 2010 I didn't create a page for November 2010 because it wasn't long enough, and that should be the process. Thoughts? Suggestions? ― Thailog 11:02, August 4, 2012 (UTC) :adding [[Aqualad#History|